Ciphers in D&D

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:14 pm

Let's say you are playing a dungeon-delving D&D game, and in the course of looting a room your PCs find a set of scrolls in a locked cabinet. The MC proceeds to hand physical scrolls to you, the players. Each scroll contains text written in English, but the characters form gibberish, and there's a lot of space between lines of text.

One of the scrolls has the space in between lines filled with comprehensible words that match the number of characters per word of the gibberish, written in a different color/font. It is pretty obvious that the scrolls are coded with a Basic Substitution Cipher, but it turns out each letter uses a different cipher. A cipher key in another cabinet indicates that the key to the ciphers is a stylized roman numeral used as decoration, which represents the number of steps in the alphabet one skips the text forward to get the real message.

If decoded, the scrolls consist of letters that inadvertently reveal the strengths and weaknesses of several major dungeon monsters, as well as the location of a hidden treasure room and what exactly the dungeon boss is scheming. They are not the only way to get this information, but they are more blatant than most other clues.

Would this puzzle be insultingly simple (yet time consuming) for you as a PC?
Would you feel that the information you got justified the time you spent working on the cipher?

PoliteNewb · Post by **PoliteNewb** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:48 pm

a.) I would find it annoying; I play D&D to kill monsters and be awesome, not to play cryptographer. If there is a simple puzzle/riddle, I'm okay with it, but something like this can fuck off (or maybe let me roll an Int check or some shit).

b.) Is there a rational reason for why someone would have these convenient coded letters with tips'n'tricks for dungeon crawlers laying around? Cause otherwise, that would blow my WSoD all to hell.

c.) I would probably not bother decoding them, in the way you described.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:52 pm

1. challenging the player v challenging the character...someone is going to bitch about this.

2. I LOVE THIS KIND OF SHIT! it means the DM put some effort intot he game.

3. i would say the result should come from a PC knowing at least how to read or write the language on the scrolls in the game, no matter which player deciphers it.

4. simple for the PC? depends on the world and literacy rating of that world.

5. simple for the players? depends on the players...

6. time consuming for either? somewhat, but hey its a puzzle and this aint no skill challenge that you can rollplay!

7. info about weaknesses of possible monsters found later is ALWAYS a good reward...unless your players metagame for the PCs. seems a good way to get that info to PCs that might not know about certain unusual monsters, or ones you have created for the game.

8. until decipher it could be a coded spell of unlimited power or a deadly curse that could destroy the world. the risk of THESE two things are what the PCs should always weigh deciphering it on. not really different than "do you put the ring on and hope it isnt cursed?"

9. would a gem/spell of true seeing reveal the information without deciphering it the "right" way?

koz · Post by **koz** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:56 pm

Much as PhoneLobster can be a foaming loon sometimes, he had valid points in his 'Riddle Me Not' thread, and all of the arguments he made there against riddles are just as valid here, IMHO.

Red_Rob · Post by **Red_Rob** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:58 pm

I have found my players really welcome one or two things like this a session as an interesting break from the normal play of D&D, but if it's more than a diversion they quickly complain. It helps if it's optional too.

You do need to know your players and their tastes though. Not everyone will appreciate the hiatus, and out of place puzzles are one of the quickest ways to remind your players this is an artificial challenge.

angelfromanotherpin · Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:04 pm

In the right sort of game, this could work. As long as the payout is a bonus and not a requirement, players are free to engage with it or ignore it as they prefer. One concern is that it might take up excessive time at the table. You might set it up as something to be puzzled over between sessions, perhaps during character downtime, and have it provide bennies in some later adventure.

Ektagliaresia · Post by **Ektagliaresia** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:04 pm

If the players have figured out the cipher, they ought to simply be allowed to spend in-game time to decrypt the scroll and have the MC hand them the decrypted scroll. Actually decrypting it by hand would be busy-work.

With that change, I'd say that this puzzle acceptable on both counts.

As an aside, is that cipher what's called a one time pad?

wotmaniac · Post by **wotmaniac** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:19 pm

as long as the information was actually useful and important .... maybe.

I personally like the occasional distraction that gives a change of pace from the typical hum-drum of adventuring. When doing something like this, I think that I actually prefer it when there isn't another way to get the information, because that way I feel like all that effort was actually worth while.

Wrathzog · Post by **Wrathzog** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:29 pm

Things like this are fine as long as you're willing to let the players make an intelligence check to auto-solve the puzzle.

wotmaniac · Post by **wotmaniac** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:42 pm

Wrathzog wrote:Things like this are fine as long as you're willing to let the players make an intelligence check to auto-solve the puzzle.

See, to me this just feels cheap -- both as a player and especially as a GM.
The whole point of something like this is to break away from the normal "I roll -- what happens?". The idea is to actually engage the players and their minds.

Don't get me wrong -- I understand what you're saying .... I personally just feel that it cheapens the experience.

Now, something that I don't mind at all (and actually expect) is to roll some sort of check to get clues in the even that the players get stuck.

Grek · Post by **Grek** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:58 pm

This is a cool idea, but I wouldn't take up table time for it. Instead, do this:

Make one scroll prop per player out of some fancy art store paper and ribbon with the enciphered text on it. Use a rotation cipher with just one number per scroll; you want this to be human crackable by someone who's not a crypto expert. Write it out by hand in ink with your very best calligraphy and print the stylized roman numeral at the bottom as a seal. If you're feeling really fancy and have some wax, put on an actual seal with the numeral carved into the wax instead of a ribbon.

At the end of the session, pull out a shoebox and inform your players that this is what they found in the room. Let the players loot the box themselves and pass around the scrolls. Inside are the scrolls. Tell your players that they have until next session to figure out the scrolls and that each of them gets to take one with them when they go. Ideally, by next week at least one of the players will have figured out that they're rotation ciphers and further that the number for each scroll is the number to rotate by, allowing them to easily translate all of the scrolls that didn't get solved at the start of the session while the party is reading out their scrolls to eachother.

If they are completely unable to figure out the puzzle by the next session, and nobody has theirs translated, then try to hide your disappointment and allow Int checks to auto-solve the puzzle.

Wrathzog · Post by **Wrathzog** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 12:53 am

wotmaniac wrote:Don't get me wrong -- I understand what you're saying .... I personally just feel that it cheapens the experience.

Personally, I agree with you... but it's just one of those things. The point of playing an RPG is that it's the PC that's solving these challenges, not the player.

I enjoy solving puzzles... but not everyone shares that inclination. There needs to be support for both types of player.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:16 am

Wrathzog wrote:The point of playing an RPG is that it's the PC that's solving these challenges, not the player.

which gov't agency in which country instituted this law?

i never agreed upon or voted for it.

an RPG is to experience thew world through the character and have fun/learn something doing so. there is no default assumption on who is solving the puzzles presented be they combat puzzles, word puzzles, code puzzles, etc. ALL decisions for the character must be made BY the player..

there already is a built-in auto-solve option for ALL RPGs if the have something similar to INT or WIS stats. players boring enough to use those are welcome to them.

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 3:26 am

Thank you for the feedback. I can certainly see that some people might find deciphering the puzzle in meatspace to be kind of tedious, especially during gametime. I find myself agreeing with the sentiment that the code-breaking minigame is something best suited to people working on it in between official RPG group meetups.

Solving the cipher should be something optional, especially since it only tangentially interacts with the standard rules of the game. Like a sketchy card game in a computer RPG, you may get rewarded for sinking some time into it, but you can probably deal with the rest of game even if you totally disregard it.

If someone takes ranks in Decipher Script or something, they should be able to get some kind of concrete advantage in dealing with the cipher puzzle. But if the characters can just auto-solve the challenge Mister Cavern spent an hour and a half producing the props for, that's really lame. Skill/ability checks should give hints or reduce the amount of in-game time spent on figuring out the scrolls.

I have semi-fancy manila drawing paper and a variety of colored pens already, so I have most of what I need to make scroll props. This idea actually came to me during a lecture when I found myself drawing little green runic decorations on the borders of one of my drawing sheets to keep my hands busy. Afterwards, I figured I might be able to use this to spice up the next adventure I make and run.

This game is intended to take multiple sessions to play out. I can easily make the logical break points also be the places where PCs find some stuff they could try decoding.

Still not sure exactly how I'd implement this (got a couple sketchy plots in mind, but I need to choose one), but I think my next scenario is shaping up to be pretty interesting.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 4:24 am

Avoraciopoctules wrote:I have semi-fancy manila drawing paper and a variety of colored pens already, so I have most of what I need to make scroll props.

you7 only really need typing/printer paper and a used tea bag to make a scroll.

1. put what you want on the scroll. (non water-based inks prefered)

2. take a shallow pan of water and place the tea bag in it and stir around the water with the bag to leech some of the tea out.

3. place the paper in the pan for a length of time until it starts turning darker.

4. take the paper out and check its color.

5. repeat steps 3 and 4 until the right color.

6. lay indoors into sunlight to dry.

your scroll will not only be the right color, but warped a bit from the wetting and drying so that it looks like aged paper.

roll up and put some kind of tie/string around it and scroll is complete.

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 4:32 am

Thanks, shadzar, that sounds like it could be pretty useful. All I've really done for "old" scrolls in the past is crumpling and specific stain spots.

Maybe I'll fiddle around with some art supplies after my library shift tomorrow. I should try and dig up my digital camera. I might have some string or leather cord I could use for scroll ties.

Dean · Post by **Dean** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 6:28 am

What I will recommend is only doing this if you know your players, or at least one of your players really likes doing puzzles IRL. I had a group once with a girl who was a real puzzle junky. Always bringing Sudoku with her and whatnot. And in those games I would often include real world puzzle situations for extra benefits just like this and she absolutely loved it. The rest of the party enjoyed it as well usually but on the occasions that they didn't seem to care about a particular puzzle they would just hand it to the puzzle girl and let her go to town.

So it's pretty much common sense honestly. If you know your players, and think they will love it then by all means use it. But if it's not your groups cup of tea then don't shoehorn it in.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:17 pm

deanruel87 wrote: The rest of the party enjoyed it as well usually but on the occasions that they didn't seem to care about a particular puzzle they would just hand it to the puzzle girl and let her go to town.

That's the thing. I personally don't care for puzzles in my D&D, even though I like puzzles (at least some kinds). But notwithstanding my personal preference, a cryptogram is still a bad idea because it's really a one person task; when I'm playing an RPG, I want to be playing with the rest of the group, not fiddling around by myself.

Wrathzog · Post by **Wrathzog** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:18 pm

shadzar wrote:ALL decisions for the character must be made BY the player..

Yeah, but all actions are ultimately performed by the player's Character. Or at least that's how it's supposed to be. If you're playing an 8 int barbarian and you solve this puzzle for the group, you're suddenly either playing rainman or you've stopped roleplaying.

there already is a built-in auto-solve option for ALL RPGs if the have something similar to INT or WIS stats. players boring enough to use those are welcome to them.

Yeah that's pretty much exactly what I said. Thanks for the support buddy.

[quote="Avoraciopoctules']Thanks, shadzar, that sounds like it could be pretty useful.[/quote]
!:shocked:!

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:36 pm

In the first D&D campaign I DM'd, the INT 9 Fighter, who had the lowest score of the party by about three or four points, was the party strategist. It became a group in-joke. It's also the sort of thing you can't really avoid.

nockermensch · Post by **nockermensch** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:57 pm

While I think that cyphers should be commonplace in a rumored "typical D&D world" it strains my WSoD that they have to be dealt by the players, at the table.

This coming from the two ends of a cryptography challenge:

1) Those who create the cyphers should be doing a much better work than the simple tasks you can expect your players to solve at game time.

2) Those who solve the cyphers should have things going for them that the players dont:

- INT 20+ (no, you don't have IQ 200).

- The spellcraft skill that has explicit "decoding" uses for you to read looted scrolls/spellbooks. What does this mean for cryptography? I dunno.

- With magic you can contact out-worldly minds and ask them to figure the key.

- With magic you can bind several mediocre minds (but who also never need to sleep) and order them to brute force the cypher.

With 1 and 2 being said, the cypher proponent could still argue that the sudoku or whatever you hand to your players is just a minigame to represent the actual, much more complex codebreaking that's actually going on in the game world. To that, I could counter-argument that I fucking hate resolving puzzles during a RPG.

Really now, I should had skipped the whole first point

TheFlatline · Post by **TheFlatline** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 3:30 pm

Chamomile wrote:In the first D&D campaign I DM'd, the INT 9 Fighter, who had the lowest score of the party by about three or four points, was the party strategist. It became a group in-joke. It's also the sort of thing you can't really avoid.

If his wisdom was decent I'd probably attribute it to the school of hard knocks/veteran of many battles rather than military academy.

TheFlatline · Post by **TheFlatline** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 3:35 pm

I've done it before. It was kind of cute, like the first time you have to fill out forms in Paranoia.

If your players are down for shit like that then I say go for it.

In my Dark Heresy game, we've had puzzles, ciphers, I gave the team a poor quality satellite map and limited intelligence and had them plan a combat mission for space marines, they've played a variant of high-stakes poker, etc etc...

It's all been part of the story, usually directly, and my group generally enjoyed it as a change up from the normal story progress (the strike mission session was actually apparently a high point of the entire campaign, which surprised me). Then again, they're fine with a 6 hour session where we don't touch the dice and just have a straight MTP session (which usually happens right before the BBEG takedown where everyone compares notes and comes up with a plan and presents the conspiracy as they understand it to the Inquisitor).

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 4:38 pm

TheFlatline wrote:
Chamomile wrote:In the first D&D campaign I DM'd, the INT 9 Fighter, who had the lowest score of the party by about three or four points, was the party strategist. It became a group in-joke. It's also the sort of thing you can't really avoid.
If his wisdom was decent I'd probably attribute it to the school of hard knocks/veteran of many battles rather than military academy.

I can't remember his wisdom score, but it's easily conceivable that the party strategist might end up playing a melee monster whose INT and WIS are both in the gutter.

Bihlbo · Post by **Bihlbo** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 6:34 pm

Well, I get jazzed about this kind of thing, but I know not everyone does. For a game once I played a character who invented his own language so his spells, journal, and conversations with his familiar would all be hidden from the outside world. To better facilitate this I created a phonetically reformed constructed script for English, busted out my calligraphy junk, and made about a dozen scrolls over the course of the campaign. The first couple were just pretty little props to further illustrate the efforts my character had gone to in order to prevent his work from being read by others (without the use of magic, obviously).

Then I made a prop that had serious in-game significance. My character knew a secret and had written it down, so I made it say just what it should say, written in my script, and the player took the bait, stole it from my character, and the GM handed it over. They knew that it says what my character had written down, but hidden behind a script for which they do not know the characters. So, it's decipherable, especially by these guys.

They didn't bother. Arguments ensued based on there being a mechanic for decipher script, and them being super lazy. In the end the GM wasn't going to force them to solve the puzzle (which, understandably, would have taken a few hours, during which time I would not have been able to participate) and we moved on. If I had been a player I would have enjoyed solving it, but I'm not them.

Bottom line: know your gamers and what they hate doing. Same goes for dungeon crawls and fighting Nazis.

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Ciphers in D&D

Ciphers in D&D

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